All forms, names, shapes, or colors appear in our worldly consciousness of Maya as appearances. On account of movement of thoughts (words…) on the surface of the Pool of Consciousness, Jeeva, influenced by Maya (or “I-am-the-body” idea), makes division out of the Totality or “Saabat” (i.e., separation from the Mool or Source…). This worldly or Mayaic mind has its own vocabulary or language. In fact, in the form of words, language is the mind! When the “Hans” (Aatmaa, Praan, Life-Force…) has left the body or is not in the body, there is also no mind or speech.
- ਆਖਣੁ ਸੁਨਣਾ ਪਉਣ ਕੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਇਹੁ ਮਨੁ ਰਤਾ ਮਾਇਆ ॥: Aakhanu sunanaa paoun kee baanee ihu manu rataa maya (sggs 24).
- ਮਨ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਬੋਲੈ ਸਭੁ ਕੋਈ ॥: Man antari bolai sabhu koee (sggs 329).
- ਜੋ ਜੀਇ ਹੋਇ ਸੁ ਉਗਵੈ ਮੁਹ ਕਾ ਕਹਿਆ ਵਾਉ ॥: Jo jee-ei hoi su ougavai muh kaa kahiaa vaaou (sggs 474).
- ਜਹ ਅਬੋਲ ਤਹ ਮਨੁ ਨ ਰਹਾਵਾ ॥: Jah abol tah manu na rahaavaa (sggs 344).
- ਜੋ ਕਿਛੁ ਕੀਆ ਸੋ ਮਨ ਕੀਆ ਮੂੰਡਾ ਮੂੰਡੁ ਅਜਾਂਇ ॥੧੦੧॥: Jo kishu keeaa so man keeaa moondaa moondu ajaani (sggs 1369).
Since the mind’s Mool is free of Maya’s influence, the Mool remains Niranjan or Nirlep (unconditioned by the bondage of name, Maya…), and is also indicated to be Formless-Spaceless-Timeless, which sees the Whole (Saabat) in the part and the part as totally related to the Whole (Saabat). As such, the Mool is neither male nor female.
- ਨਾਰਿ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਤਿ ਨ ਜਨਮਾ ਨਾ ਕੋ ਦੁਖੁ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਇਦਾ ॥੪॥: (Before the rise of the mind or Mayaic consciousness) neither there was female, nor male, nor body, nor birth (i.e., there were no embodied beings) nor did any one suffer pain or pleasure ||4|| (sggs 1035).
- ਨ ਜੱਛ ਹੈ ਨ ਗੰਧ੍ਰਬ ਹੈ ਨ ਨਰੁ ਹੈ ਨ ਨਾਰਿ ਹੈ ॥: (Akaal) is neither a Yaksha, nor a Gandharva, nor a man nor a woman. (Dasam Granth, Akaal Ustat, 67).
Simply put: When the mind is completely stabilized in its True Nature (Jot…), it is the Mool – beyond the pluralistic principle of Maya (beyond the movement of thoughts…), or beyond duality (i.e., male or female, etc.).
- ਜਹ ਅਛਲ ਅਛੇਦ ਅਭੇਦ ਸਮਾਇਆ ॥: When (the mind is contained) in the (Mool, which is) Undeceiveable, Impregnable, Impenetrable; then how Maya can pervade him there? (sggs 291).
- ਏਹੁ ਮਨੂਆ ਸੁੰਨ ਸਮਾਧਿ ਲਗਾਵੈ ਜੋਤੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਮਿਲਾਈ ॥੧੬॥: Ihu manooaa sunn samadhi lagaavai jotee joti milaaee (sggs 910).
- ਨਾਨਕ ਮਨ ਹੀ ਤੇ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਨਿਆ ਨਾ ਕਿਛੁ ਮਰੈ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥੨॥: Nanak man hee te manu maaniaa naa kichh marai n jaai (sggs 514).
- ਮਮਾ ਮੂਲ ਗਹਿਆ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਨੈ ॥: Mamaa mool gahiaa manu maanai (sggs 342).
Neither male nor female? All this sounds pretty strange, paradoxical, and even incongruous to the our worldly mind (conditioned consciousness of Maya, duality, two-ness, Haumai…), which divides and opposes.
But, there is no such contradictions in the Gurbani’s Bibek Budhi (Pure Intelligence), for the Gurbani does not speak at the level of the body-consciousness or the instinctive mind (i.e., Maya), but at the level of the Aatmaa (the State beyond Maya’s principle of two-ness), which unites and harmonizes.
Simply put: The Gurbani wants us to clearly understand that, as the Mool, one is neither a male nor a female. To call onself a male or a female is simply a bodily or Mayaic expression – identification with the body-consciousness.
Hence, the Gurbani’s Intsructions for our mind separated from its Mool for the sake of enjoying Mayaic desires (ਇਛਾ) is to become firmly re-stabilized in its Mool again, here and now – not at some other time in the future or not after the death of the physical body.
- ਇਉ ਕਹੈ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਮਨ ਤੂੰ ਜੋਤਿ ਸਰੂਪੁ ਹੈ ਅਪਣਾ ਮੂਲੁ ਪਛਾਣੁ ॥੫॥ (sggs 441).
Therefore, if one is going to identify oneself male or female, that means one is trying to understand himself as the body (individualized-consciousness), or one is confusing his Mool with his body and the mind-stuff.
- ਜਾ ਕੈ ਜੀਅ ਜੈਸੀ ਬੁਧਿ ਹੋਈ ॥ ਕਹਿ ਕਬੀਰ ਜਾਨੈਗਾ ਸੋਈ ॥੪੫॥: Says Kabeer! As is the intellect within (one’s) mind, so does (he) come to understand. ||45|| (sggs 343).
- ਮਨ ਕਾ ਸੁਭਾਉ ਸਭੁ ਕੋਈ ਕਰੈ ॥: Man kaa subhaaou sabhu kooee karai (sggs 1167).
With firm conviction obtained through the Giaan of the Gurbani, when one becomes fully stabilized in his Mool, all notions or concepts cease to be as prior to rise of the Mayaic Budhi (intellect). This “prior” state is the Original.
- ਸੁੰਨ ਮੰਡਲ ਇਕੁ ਜੋਗੀ ਬੈਸੇ ॥ ਨਾਰਿ ਨ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਕਹਹੁ ਕੋਊ ਕੈਸੇ ॥: Sunn mandal ik Yogi baise… (sggs 685).
- ਆਪੇ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਆਪੇ ਹੀ ਨਾਰੀ ॥: Aape purakhu aape hee naaree (sggs 1020).
- ਆਪੇ ਨਰੁ ਆਪੇ ਫੁਨਿ ਨਾਰੀ ਆਪੇ ਸਾਰਿ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਪਾਸਾ ॥: Aapae naru aape funi naaree aape saari aap hee paasaa (sggs 1403).
Being in the framework of time and space, the human body is limited. However, our Mool is indicated to be Unlimited, Akaal Moorati, etc. Thus, the Absolute Principle cannot be confined to human characteristics or limitations.
The Gurbani indicates that as the illusioned mind stabilizes in its True Nature (Jot...), it again transcends all labels of duality (Doojaa-Bhaav). Distinctions, differences, divisions, or duality exist only so long the mind’s conditioning persists (Mayaic, Haume or false ego-sense). The Gurbani points to the state of Mool-realization that we must realize inside by becoming the Gurmukh. Before the rise of the phantom of the mind (Haume…), that’s what the mind was! However, our mind, separated from its Mool, perceives duality: male or female, Dukha or Sukha, and so on.
- ਪੁਰਖ ਮਹਿ ਨਾਰਿ ਨਾਰਿ ਮਹਿ ਪੁਰਖਾ ਬੂਝਹੁ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ॥ ਧੁਨਿ ਮਹਿ ਧਿਆਨੁ ਧਿਆਨ ਮਹਿ ਜਾਨਿਆ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਅਕਥ ਕਹਾਨੀ ॥੩॥ (sggs 879).
In a very simple way from Gurbanee one can know as
ਸੇ ਮਨਮੁਖ ਜੋ ਸਬਦੁ ਨ ਪਛਾਣਹਿ
Manmukh are those who do not recognise THE WORD (SABADu)
So here it is utmost important to understand the reference THE WORD(SABADu)
Prakash.S.Bagga
You are right that even Mun is under the influence of Maya. And Gurbanee messages are directed for this Mun so that Mun can get rid of from the influence of Maya to realise its true
form as Jot.i
Mun is the Sole controller of the entire thought process in Human being and therefore
its treatment thru Gurbanee messages is vital to be become true Gurmukh.
Quotes in context of Munmukh to Murmukh are very relevent.
We generally say that Munmukh and Gurmukh are not deined in Gurbanee but I find these are very clearly defined but we overlook the criteria of Gurbanee as being envisaged in
Gurbanee.
Thanks and regards
Prakash.S.Bagga
Thank you Vir Jio for sharing your Vichaar.
Based on the Gurbani, you are absolutely correct Ji:
• ਮਾਇਆ ਲਾਲਚਿ ਅਟਿਆ ਪਿਆਰੇ ਚਿਤਿ ਨ ਆਵਹਿ ਮੂਲਿ ॥ (sggs 641).
Based on the Gurbani, you are absolutely correct Ji. More here on Gurmukh and Manmukh
Respeced T Singh Ji,
To day I came across a Quote from Gurbanee as
ਆਪੇ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਆਪੇ ਹੀ ਨਾਰੀ ॥ ਆਪੇ ਪਾਸਾ ਆਪੇ ਸਾਰੀ ॥ ਆਪੇ ਪਿੜ ਬਾਧੀ ਜਗੁ ਖੇਲੈ ਆਪੇ ਕੀਮਤਿ ਪਾਈ
I would request you for your views for the meaning . The Quote is at pp 1020 in SGGS ji
With warm regards
Prakash.S.Bagga
Thank you Veer Jeo,
From above messages it becomes clear that even Mun is under the influence of Maya.This
is also true.
Thru these messages the status of Mun has been enunciated so that ones Mun can realise
about what is actually required to be done. Thus having stated the state of Mun under the infuence of Maya there are hundreds of messages directed to Mun .for What Mun is required to acquire.
In fact ,Basically every person is Mun Mukh and and Gurbanee messages are a great technique to bring about the change in a person from being MunMukh to GurMukh
Although this happens thru the grace of SatiGuRu only.Till one has met ones SatiGuRu the person is going to remain MunMukh no matter How Much Wordly Knowledge one may possess
One can look for few quotes what and how Mun is being direted
Mere Mun SatiGuR Sew Sukh Hoe
Simar Munaa Simar Munaa Ram Naamu Chitaare
Mun Mere GuRu Pooraa Salahi
Mun Mere Gahu Hari Naam Ka Olaa
Mun Jaapahu Ram Gopal
Mun Te Prah Ki saran Bicharo
Mun Mere Karte Nu Salah
Mun Hari Ji Tere Naal Hae
Mun Mereya Tu Sada Such Samali
Mun Mere Hari Ke charan Raawijae
Like above there are several messages exclusively directing to Mun.
and therefore ultimate one is
Mun Tu Jot saroop Hae Apna Mool Pachaan.
Prakash.S.Bagga
Thank you Vir Jio for sharing your Vichaar.
• ਦੂਜੈ ਭਾਇ ਮਾਇਆ ਮਨੁ ਭਰਮਾਵਹਿ ॥ (sggs 116).
• ਮਨਮੁਖ ਮਾਇਆ ਮੋਹਿ ਵਿਆਪੇ ਦੂਜੈ ਭਾਇ ਮਨੂਆ ਥਿਰੁ ਨਾਹਿ ॥ (sggs 652).
• ਨਾਨਕ ਮਾਇਆ ਕਾ ਮਾਰਣੁ ਸਬਦੁ ਹੈ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਪਾਇਆ ਜਾਇ ॥੨॥
• ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਆਪਣਾ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਰਿਆ ਸਬਦਿ ਕਸਵਟੀ ਲਾਇ ॥ (sggs 87).
• ਭਾਈ ਰੇ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਬੂਝੈ ਕੋਇ ॥ (sggs 33).
• ਕੋਟਿ ਮਧੇ ਕਿਨੈ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਲਹਿਓ ॥੩॥ (sggs 241).
• ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਸੇਵਨਿ ਆਪਣਾ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੀ ਵੀਚਾਰਿ ॥ (sggs 1415).
Respected T SINGH Ji,
I like your way of expressing the views which are very much convincing.There is no second thought on this.We like to share views sometimes to strenthen our own perception.
I think Gurbanee does not talk of Mind which is definitely a product of Maya.
Gurbanee all talks about Mun..which is indepepedent of Mind.
I can put this way that Mind is Hardware for invisible Mun.
So all the messages are basically directed towards Mun only.That is why the Jot Saroop of Mun is being considered the same as Jot saroop of the Creator.
Simran ultimately is a state where our Jot of Mun is in constant unison with Jot of the Creator
and this state is to be realised in living state only.
For this we may look at a Quote from Gurbanee as
“Prabh Kijae Kirpa Nidhan hum Hari gun Gawaenge
JoTee JoTi milaye Joti Rul Jawaenge”
For your views pl.
With warm regards
Prakash.s.Bagga
Thank you Vir Jio. The Gurbani:
• ਮਾਇਆ ਮੁਈ ਨ ਮਨੁ ਮੁਆ ਸਰੁ ਲਹਰੀ ਮੈ ਮਤੁ ॥ (sggs 992).
• ਮਾਇਆ ਮੋਹੁ ਇਸੁ ਮਨਹਿ ਨਚਾਏ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਕਪਟੁ ਦੁਖੁ ਪਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੪॥ (sggs 122).
• ਮਾਇਆ ਡੋਲੈ ਬਹੁ ਬਿਧੀ ਮਨੁ ਲਪਟਿਓ ਤਿਹ ਸੰਗ ॥ (sggs 258).
• ਮਨੁ ਮਾਇਆ ਮਨੁ ਧਾਇਆ ਮਨੁ ਪੰਖੀ ਆਕਾਸਿ ॥ (sggs 1330).
• ਏਹੁ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਇਆ ਮੋਹਿਆ ਅਉਧੂ ਨਿਕਸੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਵੀਚਾਰੀ ॥੨੪॥ (sggs 908).
• ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੀ ਹਰਿ ਮਨਿ ਵਸੈ ਮਾਇਆ ਕੀ ਭੁਖ ਜਾਇ ॥ (sggs 1413).
Thank you Respected T Singh ji for your nice response
.There is no doubt about what You have stated and we have been knowing all this since long. I would like to put certain points for furtherence of this vichaar.
I feel that the quotes mentioned by your goodself in support of Prabh being mentioned as Formless basically refer to the physical forms of the creations which are under the influence of Maya and are perishable.
But No where Gurbanee teaches that Creator as envisaged in Gurbanee is Formless.On the other hand from Gurbanee we come to know about the Form of Creator as A WAVE /WAVES
Gurbanee very clearly makes the reference to CREATOR as TARANGEE.
Now can we say that Creator is not being refered as TARANG (A WAVE/WAVES) and if Creator is stated to be A WAVE FORM then How this WAVE FORM can be FORMLESS?
I think probably this concept of Creator as Wave Form in Gurbanee has been totally overlooked and this seems to me the fundamental reason for deviation in knowing the
Creator in Gurbanee.
I hope your goodself to look into this aspect of Creator in Gurbanee and I would look forward to your views in this very important context.
With warm regards
Prakash.s.Bagga
Thank you Vir Jio for sharing your Vichaar.
I read your comments on other posts a well, in which you also talk about Wave/Waves. For example, as you stated here, in one of the comments on other posts you said something similar:
The Gurbani tells us that our mind is Joti-svaroopa.
The Gurbani also indicates our Mool to be Joti.
BUT HERE IS THE DIFFERENCE.
The mind creates waves, because it is attached to Maya. In other words, for waves to be created, there has to be the Maya-medium (Bharam, illusion, duality…). HENCE APPEARANCE OF THE FORM.
HOWEVER, THE JOTI OF OUR MOOL IS DISCONNECTED FROM MAYA. HENCE NO FORM, OR RESTLESSNES…
Brother, if this does not convince you, then I am afraid my limited-self will never be able to.
Wah GuRoo Ji Ka Khalsa ,wah GuRoo ji Ki Fateh,
Once it is stated that Mother is addressed as Masculine,where is the gender free consideration.
While I fully agree to your point of the Word MATA as being Masculine in the Quote.
Now one can look a Quote as
“MATA MATi PITA SANTOKH,”
In above context the word MATA is as Feminine Gender
Thus it becomes clear that the word MATA is Masculine as well as Feminine gender depending on context of its application.
Prakash.s.Bagga
Thank you so much Vir Jio for sharing your Vichaar.
Like we humans ourselves, our languages are also limited. However, the Guroos and the Bhagats had to use these limited human languages to translate the “Baanee” (or Bani) they directly received from the Parmeshar (“ਧੁਰ ਕੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਆਈ”).
The very elementary Teaching of the Gurbani is that the Original Source (Reality, Jot, Prabh…) is without “Roop” (form), “Rekh” (shape), or “Rang” (color)…
All forms are a five-elemental play, or Maya. And, anything under the purview of Maya is subjected to the “Jaraa Rog” – old age, death…
But, as the Gurbani tells us, the Prabh (“ਪ੍ਰਭ”) is “Niranjan” (beyond Maya) as well as Undying (beyond time or birth and death-“Akaal”); thus, beyond the five-elemental play. Because, in the absemce of Maya’s influence, no physical form is to be seen, and there can be no “Jaraa Rog” as well.
Thus the Prabh is mentioned to be Formless!
• ਰੂਪੁ ਨ ਰੇਖ ਨ ਪੰਚ ਤਤ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਅਬਿਨਾਸ ॥੨॥ (sggs 816).
• ਰੂਪੁ ਨ ਰੇਖ ਨ ਰੰਗੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਤ੍ਰਿਹੁ ਗੁਣ ਤੇ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਭਿੰਨ ॥ (sggs 283).
• ਮੁਕਤ ਭਏ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਰੂਪ ਨ ਰੇਖੰ ॥੧॥ (sggs 223).
• ਤਿਸੁ ਰੂਪੁ ਨ ਰੇਖਿਆ ਵਰਨੁ ਨ ਕੋਈ ਗੁਰਮਤੀ ਆਪਿ ਬੁਝਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ (sggs 120).
If we miss this basic Principle of the Gurbani, then we have further strengthen the already formiddable wall of doubt (Bharam-ਭਰਮ) within.
Also, if the Prabh or Parmeshar is assumed to have a form, then we have assumed He is subjected Maya and, thus, “Jaraa Rog” – old age, death…
The Gurbani throughout the 1430 pages tells us that’s not the case: He is Undying, and not subjected to Maya.
Because our human languages are subjected to the influence of Maya, the Gurbani (which was presented to us translated in our human language) tells us to churn the Gur-Shabad (i.e. Shabad-Vichaar…) as we churn the milk to separate the Butter (Brahm-Giaan) and Chhaachh (Maya)!!
• ਕਬੀਰ ਮਾਇਆ ਡੋਲਨੀ ਪਵਨੁ ਝਕੋਲਨਹਾਰੁ ॥ ਸੰਤਹੁ ਮਾਖਨੁ ਖਾਇਆ ਛਾਛਿ ਪੀਐ ਸੰਸਾਰੁ ॥੧੮॥ (sggs 1365).
• ਕਬੀਰ ਮਾਇਆ ਡੋਲਨੀ ਪਵਨੁ ਵਹੈ ਹਿਵ ਧਾਰ ॥ ਜਿਨਿ ਬਿਲੋਇਆ ਤਿਨਿ ਖਾਇਆ ਅਵਰ ਬਿਲੋਵਨਹਾਰ ॥੧੯॥ (sggs 1365).
• ਘ੍ਰਿਤ ਕਾਰਨ ਦਧਿ ਮਥੈ ਸਇਆਨ ॥ ਜੀਵਤ ਮੁਕਤ ਸਦਾ ਨਿਰਬਾਨ ॥ (sggs 1167).
In fact, the Gurbani clearly tells us that the “ਅਖਰ” (the Unperishable or Undying…) is not to be found in these letters (ਅੱਖਰ)!
Accordingly, the Gurbani tells us to engage in searching (“ਸੋਧਿ ਕੈ”-investigating, refinging, “ਖੋਜ”…) these letters (ਅੱਖਰ)!!!!!!
• ਬਾਵਨ ਅਖਰ ਸੋਧਿ ਕੈ ਹਰਿ ਚਰਨੀ ਚਿਤੁ ਲਾਇ ॥੧੭੩॥: Baavan akhar sodi kai hari charanee chitu laai ||173 (sggs 1373).
• ਏ ਅਖਰ ਖਿਰਿ ਜਾਹਿਗੇ ਓਇ ਅਖਰ ਇਨ ਮਹਿ ਨਾਹਿ ॥੧॥ (sggs 340).
Waheguru ji ka khalsa,Waheguru ji ki fateh!!
Veer jeo,you have taken up the most relevant topic.Living in this mayac world we are not entitled to enjoy multiple relationships with any one individual, like father is just father, mother is mother and likewise all other relationships,but the inner soul enjoys multiple relationships with the MOOL, Gurbani confirms it-“TU MERA PITA TU HAE MERA MATA,TU MERA BANDHAP TU MERE BHRATA” Pl note here mother is addressed as Masculine., free of gender distinction.Regards
Balwant Singh Seera
I think that the FORM of Creator is different from the Wordly Visible Forms.
The context of Neither MALE or FEMALE is related to this aspect of Wordly Visible Forms.
Otherwise in its own specific Invisible Form ,the CREATOR is stated to be PURAKHu which is the reference for MALE as well as FEMALE character of the Creator.
Prakash.s.Bagga
Prakash.S.Bagga